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RE: Thoughts on a plug-in hybrid conversion
Thanks Huntindog, that kind of support is very buoying. I've devoted years of my life and hundreds of thousands of my own $ to bring this thing to life, and, like you say, there's no guarantee of success. Certainly can't imagine taking on that kind of risk without reaching out to as many potential customers as possible to figure out what people actually want.
APT, the Cherokee (on super swampers) gets 32-34 backroad miles on 13 kWh of usable battery. The final product should have some efficiency gains and be lighter.
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BlueDotTom
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06/05/23 10:21am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Thoughts on a plug-in hybrid conversion
Thanks so much for the thoughtful comments.
Completely agree that the product is not for everyone. The data sources we've found suggest that a 30 mile range covers about 60% of daily driving in the US. 45 miles covers about 75%. There is, of course, a huge geographic component to this. Urban folks might be quite a bit less on average, and rural folks quite a bit more.
Also completely agree that someone already in the market for a new car would generally be better served by upgrading to a PHEV from an OEM. We're trying to address the portion of the market who don't want to or can't afford to buy new...the used car market in the US is twice the size of the new car market. And of course, there's the complete lack of any PHEV pickups on the market, which really blows my mind.
I started thinking about the RV market because my buddy is really anxious for our products to come out. He and his family hit the road for months/years at a time in their 5th wheel. They stay in one place for weeks/months, and use their pickup as a daily driver at the destinations. They'd love to do all that under electric power, but they also put in 500+ mile days of towing, so pure EV isn't a great option. He may be a niche use case, but the same factors apply to someone who uses their pickup as both a daily driver and a tow vehicle.
Lastly, just to clarify, $10K would be for a system that gave ~45 miles of range to a 3/4 ton. 30 miles would be cheaper, smaller vehicle would be cheaper, etc.
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BlueDotTom
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06/01/23 05:26pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Thoughts on a plug-in hybrid conversion
The hitch mount sits low enough to avoid the tailgate (adjustable height). It can be paired with our helper suspension system (basically a spring system that connects the hitch to the axle) so that the mass acts like it's right on top of the axle.
The regulations get muddy when what you're doing affect the emissions control system of the vehicle. When I talked to CARB they were like, oh yeah, you're going to have a much easier time if you keep things separate.
In terms of which class of truck we go to market with, we haven't decided yet. My opinion changes on a daily basis. Right now I'd say I'm sort of 40-30-30 class I-IIa-IIb. Lots of Tacoma drivers who just put mountain bikes in the bed on the weekend and a home depot run twice a quarter!
The math on payback is super situational. I have a spreadsheet I can share if wanted. Our first beta customer to sign an LOI gave us all the data for their 59 vehicle fleet and the payback period for specific vehicles ranged from under 2 years to over 10 years. The fleet-wide average was 3 years. Their gas is $5.96 a gallon and their electricity is pretty cheap (gotta love hydro).
We do have some IP about electrifying just the front axle. The space is much more constrained, though, which makes achieving universality a lot more challenging. Plus then you still need to add a driveshaft disconnect for the rear or a tranny oil pump. Probably something we'll pursue someday, but not our initial focus.
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BlueDotTom
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05/26/23 12:31pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Thoughts on a plug-in hybrid conversion
Looks like they did sell to fleets for a couple of years.
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BlueDotTom
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05/25/23 05:24pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Thoughts on a plug-in hybrid conversion
Thanks for reminding me of them. As far as I can tell, Via never make it into production. They've changed ownership and pivoted a few times and are now getting ready to make full electric vehicles (just in time to have to compete with the big 3). Hard to say why they never made it to market 10 years ago with the PHEVs. They were using batteries from A123, so it's possible that when they went down Via went with them (like Fisker round 1).
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BlueDotTom
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05/25/23 05:13pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Thoughts on a plug-in hybrid conversion
Ok, thanks for all the comments...super valuable feedback. I'll try to respond to everything here:
We'll be offering our systems in basically small-medium-large configurations. Our target power is 200-250-300 hp, but we might tweak that.
Totally hear the payload capacity argument. Not a good idea for someone already pushing the limits. We're not exclusively going after the RV market, just trying to get a sense for how attractive it would be to how much of that market. I should mention that there is also a hitch-mounted option which can be quickly removed before hooking up a trailer if payload is a limiting factor.
Regarding engine braking...we will, in the future, offer a blended operation mode where you can use both the engine and the motor, in which case you would get regenerative braking. As I mentioned before, this gets tricky with regulations in some states, so we won't tackle that until we're established in the marketplace.
PHEVs in general are a great solution for a lot of people, based on how most people actually drive. But definitely not for everyone. For a big chunk of people, the payback period for a system like this would be less than a financing term, so you can go into it only saving money. And this is without any gov't incentives (which we're working on) or leveraging carbon credits (in states that have cap-and-trade systems, they can cut the price almost in half).
Thanks so much folks...this is all fantastic info.
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BlueDotTom
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05/25/23 10:53am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Thoughts on a plug-in hybrid conversion
Thanks for the comments! A half ton option would be about 350 pounds, though some recent advances in the types of batteries we're using will likely drive that down to under 300. We understand that some people run their trucks right up to their payload capacity, and this wouldn't be a good fit in that case. But some half ton configurations could use our system while towing an 8,000 lb trailer and still have 1750 lbs of payload available.
We have a design that allows parallel power delivery like you're describing, but we're not planning on launching with it. The problem is regulatory...things get iffy when you're doing something that interferes with the native engine and emission control systems. Our hope is that once we're in the market and demonstrating the emissions reduction potential of the technology, we can advocate for some favorable regulation.
We're not targeting vehicle's in warranty. But it's worth pointing out that the burden is always on the manufacturer to prove that something an owner did caused a failure. The average vehicle lifespan is 21 years, so we still have plenty of room to work with, and the systems can be transferred to a new vehicle easily.
For people who can afford a new truck that has everything they want, we're not the right answer. We're specifically going after the people who have been priced out of the new car market (especially EV pickups). Plus, no one makes a plug-in hybrid pickup, which kinda blows my mind.
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BlueDotTom
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05/24/23 05:55pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Thoughts on a plug-in hybrid conversion
Thanks for the feedback. The return on investment depends a lot on local fuel price and an individual's use case. Someone in my neck of the woods driving like an average American would break even in 3.3 years and would save about $15k over the life of the product.
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BlueDotTom
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05/24/23 04:27pm |
Tow Vehicles
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Thoughts on a plug-in hybrid conversion
Hello!
I am the founder of a Seattle-based startup. We are developing a family of universal retrofit kits that convert existing vehicles into plug-in hybrids. Our first product will be for pickup trucks, and I am hoping to get some thoughts from this and other RV communities on what features may be desirable, what the major concerns would be, etc. My thinking is that for people who use their trucks for daily driving but also frequent towing, our product could be very attractive, especially because it can be used as a generator.
In a nutshell, the kits add an electric propulsion system good for 30-45 miles of range without removing the engine. The battery pack and power electronics get mounted in the bed like a small bed toolbox. We remove a section of the tubular part of the driveshaft and install a “coaxial drive unit” that has an electric motor stack, a planetary transmission, and a multi-mode clutch that can shift-on-the-fly. The clutch allows EV operation while disconnecting the engine/tranny, engine operation while disconnecting the electric motors, and generator mode which uses the engine to spin the electric motors without turning the wheels. A linkage that connects to the axle tubes provides reaction torque. We’ve prototyped a simplified version of the system and tested in on real roads.
Because the systems are universal, we can mass-produce them, have them installed by third-parties, and hit a much lower price point than other conversions (approximately $7k-10K covering the range from midsize to ¾ ton). I’d love to get the group’s thoughts and gage the level of interest.
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BlueDotTom
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05/24/23 04:00pm |
Tow Vehicles
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